Curse

HawkofStorms · Jul 27, 2007, 01:08 AM // 01:08

/notsigned

People in guilds who are one or two people short deserve a chance to GvG. Casual play is just that.

Homer Simpson Be · Jul 27, 2007, 02:06 AM // 02:06

we've been one or two people short the past 2 days... that's what friends lists are for (or you could go to HA looking for a pug)

we _are_ a casual GvG guild, yet we really can't enjoy playing vs all the heroway (I'd take losing from balanced over winning from heroway anytime)

Vnewbie · Jul 27, 2007, 02:33 AM // 02:33

/signed

If you must know, I am a CASUAL player. And I friggin hate how heros are really ruining the PvP play. Actually, I'd go as far as to say that they are also ruining the PvE play, but that's not for this topic.

Anyways...remember, the topic says no HEROES. Why no heroes? Its because they can fill in certain roles that even the elitest humans could never do as well (not even someone fictional like Kira Yamato). Its just the way the AI was programmed. Now then, I have no problems with unlimited henchies...at least they have medium builds that fill generalized purposes. But come on...leme give an example: Interupters. Tell them to target caster X. Caster X starts casting. Around 1 nanosecond later, Caster X is interupted. With a human, it would take at least .5 of a second to interupt.

And besides, its called Player vs. Player, not Guided Ai vs. Guided Ai (or GAi vs. GAi)

Fitz Rinley · Jul 27, 2007, 03:31 AM // 03:31

I think the number one advantage of Heroes is they do not disagree with command and follow orders. They would give teams that cannot afford high-end Teamspeak or Ventrillo the opportunity to compete. I have never had more than one other person in my guild. I only take people in who are learning the game, and let them move on when they no longer need my help. Had GvG been maintained like it was in Preview weekend I might have attempted to do battles in support of friends who had their own or belonged to other guilds. Because of the changes requiring so many players per guild, etc. I ceased any interest in it - I was effectively banned because I could not be coerced into either destroying my personal expression and subordinating myself to someone else's guild or trying to run a faction farming mega corporation for the purposes of PvE and PvP/GvG/Alliances. But if heroes put single and small family guilds on equal footing with major competitive zergs that is fine with me. If they actually turn the table in favor of the small guild then it can at this point only be a just compensation.

Melchiah · Jul 27, 2007, 03:40 AM // 03:40

/not signed

If you lose to heroway, you're doing something wrong.

infymys · Jul 27, 2007, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melchiah

/not signed

If you lose to heroway, you're doing something wrong.

Maybe you should read the posts on this thread. It's not about losing or beating heroway. It's about heroes being in a Player vs Player environment in which they shouldn't belong.

Fitz Rinley · Jul 27, 2007, 05:16 AM // 05:16

HoH shouldn't control PvE access to PvE content but it does, and it still does, and PvP has done nothing to change that - while at the same time they have eliminated their dependence on PvE for obtaining their skills. If we are going to talk about what belongs in an environment you can start with severing the control of elite PvP professional players over PvE content access.

But what is amusing is you feel because a player is taking on the complication of micromanaging four heroes/bars with the assistance of artificial intelligence which makes bad decisions on skill chaining that you are being put upon to manage one.

infymys · Jul 27, 2007, 05:20 AM // 05:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

HoH shouldn't control PvE access to PvE content but it does, and it still does, and PvP has done nothing to change that - while at the same time they have eliminated their dependence on PvE for obtaining their skills. If we are going to talk about what belongs in an environment you can start with severing the control of elite PvP professional players over PvE content access.

Passage Scrolls ftw.

Fitz Rinley · Jul 27, 2007, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Passage scrolls are obtained from drops in FoW/UW and therefore do not count as elimination of the tyranny of HoH over PvE content area. One must first have access to those areas to get the drop, meaning they are still randomly subject to the elite PvP player, while the PvP game may be played without ever being concerned for the out come of PvE events. Maybe HoH should only be enterable when PvE players of their region have defeated Glint, Shiro, and Abaddon more than the other regions for that hour of that day. It would amount to the same thing.

explodemyheart · Jul 27, 2007, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

Passage scrolls are obtained from drops in FoW/UW and therefore do not count as elimination of the tyranny of HoH over PvE content area. One must first have access to those areas to get the drop

When stating things so matter-of-factly, it would first help to be correct.

Ignoring the fact that any player can buy an UW or FoW scroll off of another player anywhere at any time for around 1-1.5k, passage scrolls do, in fact, drop from any boss in hard mode.

Fitz Rinley · Jul 27, 2007, 06:24 AM // 06:24

I have never seen one drop. But then I do not see any drops from anything that I would consider decent. In three months of play I have not once received a drop that completely meets my interest. And If I have to purchase something from other players, especially given the number of gold sinks that already exist against an economy of crap drops, then I do not now nor will I ever have access to these areas.

But I will stand corrected if you say these mythical objects fall from the sky in hard mode from bosses (which I have killed and frankly hardly see them drop anything except a body part or maybe 105g) then I will accept that this must be true.

All it does is increase the probability that I will continue to see Obsidian Armor and the like as things only for those that e-bay for enough gold to purchase anything they want.

FrAnt1c² · Jul 27, 2007, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

I have never seen one drop. But then I do not see any drops from anything that I would consider decent. In three months of play I have not once received a drop that completely meets my interest. And If I have to purchase something from other players, especially given the number of gold sinks that already exist against an economy of crap drops, then I do not now nor will I ever have access to these areas.

But I will stand corrected if you say these mythical objects fall from the sky in hard mode from bosses (which I have killed and frankly hardly see them drop anything except a body part or maybe 105g) then I will accept that this must be true.

All it does is increase the probability that I will continue to see Obsidian Armor and the like as things only for those that e-bay for enough gold to purchase anything they want.

Oh please, so you think that everone with obsidian armor has bought it on ebay? I think you should better quit guild wars... I got about a dozen of scroll drops from bosses. If you want money? Go do elite mission, go farm whatever.

That being said, back ontopic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melchiah

/not signed

If you lose to heroway, you're doing something wrong

.

Heroes ascent and GvG battles are supposed to be the high end pvp part of the game. The fact why people love it so much, is because they have put endless amounts of effort in making their builds perfect, creating new ones, studying tactics. All this has come to a waste because of people wanting easy fame/wins with heroes. If you say you got the same skills of infusing at the right moment like a hero would do, ( well not with infuse but you get the picture of a N/Rt healer ) then I sincerely offer my apologies. But untill then I think heroes are just machines and they dont just fit the picture of pvp. The whole image of pvp is winning from your opponent, because you are the better one and take advantage of its flaws... But when you are facing heroes not even a perfect spike would kill your opponent, because it would be countered by a perfect infuse... And thats the whole point of this discussion, heroes do things that Humans ( the player in pvp ) just can not do.

Effendi Westland · Jul 27, 2007, 07:00 AM // 07:00

/signed

In my opinion HA and GvG are just not fun with heros in them. If they were worse at their job then the avarage player it wouldn't be so much a problem, but there are builds they are so much better with then anybody else.

I'm not an elitist, in fact I'm a pvp scrub and do it casually. We've been preparing to do some GvG this weekend, however when we hit observer we discovered to our dismay that we'll probably not be facing teams of players, but imbalanced Olias' with their player pets.

Fitz Rinley · Jul 27, 2007, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrAnt1c²

Oh please, so you think that everone with obsidian armor has bought it on ebay? I think you should better quit guild wars... I got about a dozen of scroll drops from bosses. If you want money? Go do elite mission, go farm whatever.

Yes, I suspect that of the majority who have it and have no reason to believe otherwise. Farming for an entire day can raise a whole 5-10k. This is enough to out fit one hero if you are using bonus weapons. The idea that someone has produced all the necessary materials, pluse ecto, plus shards, plus cost to obtain Obsidian Armor while meeting the requirements of all the other gold sinks in the game in bewteen tells me said persons did not honestly come by any game gold.

[/QUOTE]Heroes ascent and GvG battles are supposed to be the high end pvp part of the game. The fact why people love it so much, is because they have put endless amounts of effort in making their builds perfect, creating new ones, studying tactics. All this has come to a waste because of people wanting easy fame/wins with heroes. If you say you got the same skills of infusing at the right moment like a hero would do, ( well not with infuse but you get the picture of a N/Rt healer ) then I sincerely offer my apologies. But untill then I think heroes are just machines and they dont just fit the picture of pvp. The whole image of pvp is winning from your opponent, because you are the better one and take advantage of its flaws... But when you are facing heroes not even a perfect spike would kill your opponent, because it would be countered by a perfect infuse... And thats the whole point of this discussion, heroes do things that Humans ( the player in pvp ) just can not do.[/QUOTE]

Obviously, if you cannot beat game AI, which is the same AI that runs the monsters in PvE, then your build is not perfect. When European players were having trouble with America always having favor the response by PvP players was: tough-$&$#, get better. So, the Europeans got better. Seems to me what your complaining about is an unwillingness to adapt to a new environment.

FrAnt1c² · Jul 27, 2007, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

Yes, I suspect that of the majority who have it and have no reason to believe otherwise. Farming for an entire day can raise a whole 5-10k. This is enough to out fit one hero if you are using bonus weapons. The idea that someone has produced all the necessary materials, pluse ecto, plus shards, plus cost to obtain Obsidian Armor while meeting the requirements of all the other gold sinks in the game in bewteen tells me said persons did not honestly come by any game gold.

If you only get 5-10k from a day of farming, then you are doing something wrong... Check out the guru farm forums and stop complaining. I can make about 10-30k an hour easy. Farming has been nerfed blabla, find new ways in making money. And stay ontopic ffs...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

if you cannot beat game AI, which is the same AI that runs the monsters in PvE, then your build is not perfect. When European players were having trouble with America always having favor the response by PvP players was: tough-$&$#, get better. So, the Europeans got better. Seems to me what your complaining about is an unwillingness to adapt to a new environment.

So what you are saying is that some mantid monitor has the same AI as olias? I think not! Refusing to adapt? I just demand that pvp becomes PVP again. Is that so bloody hard to understand? As stated above heroes do things humans just simply can't. The fact that europeans got more favor now has got nothing to do with americans unable to adapt, as nearly all good players play in the international disctricts anyway. So even americans can join european guilds. Oh wait, guess what I just realised something... I am from europe, oh then why am I complaining? Well simply because 80% of the people are running heroway and from what I understand is that people want to have fun playing gw, is it not? Well then, why put heroes instead of humans? If people are complaining they can't get a team, why not merge 2 heroway teams into 1 and make a human team with the heroway build? Why? Because that way the build would fail against all decent builds. Simply because the build takes skills that only heroes got (eg perfect healing, using signet of lost souls perfectly, maintaining tainted on everyone ).

xxx wraith xxx · Jul 27, 2007, 08:22 AM // 08:22

get a max of 2 heroes, this way they can jump in if you dont have enough players but you always face more players then npc's this way

E.V.A · Jul 27, 2007, 08:56 AM // 08:56

/Signed on suggestion removing all Heroes from HA and GvG

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

Obviously, if you cannot beat game AI, which is the same AI that runs the monsters in PvE, then your build is not perfect.

Since when the problem has been builds or same skillbars than in PvE? Learn to read the whole topic before making such comments please, as discussion has been about abusing certain features Heroes are able to do, which are considered as impossible for most players. (Such as reapplying Tainted's at split second it's wearing off, putting Death Nova on several minions, knowing which hex is taken off from target etc. (all these mentioned before in this thread).) Counting all these and keeping kiting/positioning/tactics in form without single mistake in counts is imbalanced to have on 4 NPCs (that another team hasn't got) when it's about competitive gaming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

When European players were having trouble with America always having favor the response by PvP players was: tough-$&$#, get better. So, the Europeans got better.

That is off-topic (and might lead to arguing), but to comment it you're writing on wrong matter. Then it was about builds and players own skills versus another players, when it comes to Heroes those opposite players have been replaced by NPCs and it's not as much player versus player as it used to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

Seems to me what your complaining about is an unwillingness to adapt to a new environment.

If heroes were only add-ons on previous player-teams-of-eight and equal to both teams, then it could be said only to be "a new enviroment" comparable to Archers, Knights, Bodyguards and Guild Lords. But as you can replace players with AI that can be abused, it's not the same.

Cass · Jul 27, 2007, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Let me state my opinion clearly: Heroes need to be banned from HA and GvG.

The arguments made in favor of their presence are laughable. Those of you who want to run heroway are elitists. Elitists who accuse people who want to play with (and against) other humans of elitism.

Behold your elitism. You shun real players because they are too weak for your taste. You shun other players because even though their rank/title suggests they have experience, they have the audacity to expect you to have some too. You shun others because you can't be bothered to make a full team; it takes too much of your precious time. You shun others simply because you can't get along with them. How dare people ask you to show your skillbar!?

Don't make the argument that you are playing for fun either. Fun can be had as Lorekeeper said: run 8 W/E with hamstring+firestorm. Run with henchmen. Go to a smaller arena. No. What you want is to get fame/rank on the ladder. You've heard about heroway winning a lot, observed it maybe... then you got the build off gwshack or wiki and carbon copied it. Not for fun, but so you can win with the absolute minimum amount of effort. An amount of effort that would otherwise not deliver much at all, if you were forced to party with henchmen or -gasp- other players; a route that was consequently rarely taken by the likes of you.

And finally, don't act like people want heroes out just because they are hard to beat. Heroes need to go because playing against bots (and always the exact same bots+bars) is stale. I actually don't expect "casual players" to understand this, but the essence is that the competition between humans is what makes PvP attractive. It's the reason for playing online (ignoring cooperative PvE for a moment), and the reason why I've not been playing single-player games much at all for a long time now: Fighting the computer opponent inevitably gets boring.
Maybe some play examples will illuminate this further. I like to play mesmer. One of the greatest joys of playing that role is to see how an opponent reacts to your interference. Sometimes you will see a caster stand still in frustration for several seconds, after being interrupted several times. Sometimes they will switch to a fast cast weapon set, or will start to cancel spells to lure your interrupts. Some will run far back and use party-wide spells from there. Whether I prevail or whether the opponent manages to overcome the disruption doesn't even matter... the joy is to have this battle of minds. Olias on the other hand doesn't blink when you interrupt him, he just casts the next spell. He doesn't get nervous whether diversion is on him or not. Sure, you can stop him, but it is a dead victory.

huntingtonm · Jul 27, 2007, 09:32 AM // 09:32

/Signed. Heroway can be beaten but why should they get such special treatment in a pvp environment idk.

@ Gods Ap, I understand now. No matter how someone voices an opinion you will be there castigating the "whiners"...Elitism spike in 3...2...1...!

Sophitia Leafblade · Jul 27, 2007, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenshi_strife

ok sophita, i would give it up, as you can see guru is filled with elitist that do not get the concept of CASUAL PLAY. if i am not mistaken, that is what GW is founded on, but no they want this to become more difficult for a player to get in and learn pvp.

Yeah I know I should, but I really just want these people to understand which they clearly don’t. Ok lets explain all the points raised:

For Heros:

Lack of Friends/Guild members – Yes you can still PUG with non friends/members however, if you have a group of close nit friends who you know and who you get along with really well and you are a few people down when it comes to time to GvG. You currently have a choice you can either: Add some heros who you’ve set up to fill the spot of your missing friends, or you can invite a random person to join, this random person, doesn’t know your play style, this person could be one of the numerous selfish self centred people who Rage Quit at the slightest look of defeat and who call any who doesn’t live up to his Perfection “n00b” I cant count the number of people ive met in game like this and im sure a lot of you cant deny you’ve met people like this. Yes there are still a lot of nice people out there, but you get to know them beforem invite them, you don’t just invite a totally random person to a GvG for example.

I cant find a party – I cant say ive ever really had this problems, maybe once now or again you cant find a PUG while the districts are quiet but generally its pretty easy to get a party. However once you join a Pug you have no idea what sort of people you joining in with.

Its all for Fun – This is one of the most important factors here. PvP is for Fun! Its not designed as a serious life style, the whole point of a game is for fun. Yes everyone finds different things fun. People call HA and GvG “high end” PvP, in a sense they are right, they are the biggest PvP form in the sense of competition and at the higher tiers but they are infact not “high end” Real high End battles are the battles that occur in the Large scale Anet organised tournaments. These are the High End Battles, and I have no issue with heros not being able to be used in such battles. However your bog standard GvG or Ha is not high end. IF 2 low ranked Guild commence battle its not high end. Its 2 groups out to have a battle for fun, with the possibility of gaining some guild ranking. There are ALOT of guilds that battle that never get high on the ladder, or even get on the ladder at all. Anet could perhaps remove heros from battles between high ranked guilds (any guild over 100th place) since they seem to know that the guilds are high ranked (since they end up on the observer mode) but other than that they should not be removed. Each type of PvP is different from the other forms of PVP, each one is unique not just in the number of players but the goals, the rewards, the winning conditions etc. Telling people that don’t want to spend every waking moment studying the current “meta game” that they cant compete in HA is biased and unfair. Such people probally wont get fair in the Tournament, but they have as much right to compete as you do, either you are using heros or not.

Against Heros:

I Suffered, so should you –Yes the world needs more arguments like this, ok I suffered x, because of that Everyone else should suffer x. Ok lets take this to a extreme example (this is not meant as a offence to anyone) You don’t hear people who have lost a parent while young saying “ I lost my Parent and suffered you should too”. Lots of people lose their parents while young, that doesn’t mean everyone has to suffer. Its part of the random chance of life, some people suffer somethings, others don’t.

Heros are too hard to beat – Nothing in this game is too hard to beat, well except maybe Mallynx but that’s PvE, but where talking PvP here. The whole point of having the huge selection of skills in the game is that there is no Super skill set, it’s A defeats B defeats C ….. Having problems with the MM with tainted Flesh etc. disable the skill (Diversion), Steal his minions(Veratas Aura) Use the Enchants against them (Desecrate Enchantment) etc. etc. Like any other player build you learn to adapt, if you cant adapt then your clearly not as good at PvP as you think you are. Heroes have rapid reflexes are awareness, sure ok you cant deny that, however that aside they are incredibly stupid. How do you beat humans? you take advantage of there IQ flaws or build. How do you beat Heros? You take advantage of there IQ flaws or builds, its no different

Heroes are too easy to beat –If there so easy, its an easy win for you, and onto the next battle, theres no real issue here, its just the same as defeating a group who are doing there first attempt at HA.

It should be Player Vs Player – Ok lets see : Guild Lord is AI, Bodyguards are AI, Ghostly Heros are AI, Ghostly Priests are AI, Base Defenders are AI, Minions are AI, need I really go on? There is NO pure PvP in GW with the exception of the event games. It has always been this way, nothing has suddenly changed with the addition of Heroes. If you want Pure PvP, simply your in the wrong game. Some argue the “environmental” NPCS don’t count, but really your just trying to ignore them because you know your contradicting yourself otherwise wanting Heroes removed for not being players and not wanting the “environmental” NPCs removed.

PvP is serious – (see its all for fun)